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Gun Control & Mental Illness

Politicians at the federal level will be giving recommendations for gun control laws to prevent these crimes. I fear that mental illness will be both a scapegoat and a target (no pun intended).

In the last year, there have been two very highly publicized mass shootings in our country. Every single day, there are less publicized stories of shootings in various Metro Detroit cities. In the coming weeks, politicians at the Federal level are supposed to be giving recommendations for gun control laws to prevent these crimes. I fear that mental illness will be both a scapegoat and a target (No pun intended).

Here is my background: I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder in 2003. I am gainfully employed and volunteer several hours a week to help others. I do not want a gun but believe in people's rights to own and carry. 

Sad Truth: I am far more likely to hurt myself than someone else. In fact, I would rather hurt myself than someone else. The vast majority of people die by suicide than by a mass shooting at the hands of someone with a mental illness. This is a better and less stigmatizing reason to have laws in place. 

Here are the facts: It has been documented in study after study that a person with a mental illness is at no greater risk of committing a violent crime than someone who does not have a mental illness. In fact, many studies also show that people with a mental illness are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the perpetrator. Looking at Demographics, no one in a million years would ever say to not let an African American man...or simply a man purchase a gun. There are more statistics and studies to support that logic than the logic to prevent a person with a mental illness from carrying a gun. I believe laws that target any of these groups would be wrong. 

Here is my fear: The only way to truly stop people with a mental illness from having a gun is to create a database. They have these in Europe very much like we have for sex offenders. Having a mental illness is not a crime, and we should NOT have a database. As we move forward with the ACA and electronic records, this is a likely scenario. I have absolutely no desire to have a gun, so I shouldn't be in a database. Looking at the reaction from these horrific acts, I can see the stigma and ignorance increase. Having a database would be just like wearing a scarlet letter. 

Here is the Population: 1 in 5 people has been diagnosed with a mental llness. Therefore, 20% of the population would not be able to carry a weapon. I have also heard that the statistic is closer to 1 in 4. Guess what...Zoloft is not a heart pill and Lexapro isn't just for your nerves. They are antidepressants that millions of people take but act like they don't have a diagnosis. If you support gun control in general, this is still not the way to go. 

The fact is...mental illness is NOT a factor or predictor of violence. We do need to do better by our citizens who are diagnosed with a mental illness. Limiting their rights is not the way to go about this. Creating a database would be catastrophic. Mental illness is not the issue. Please do not let it be the scapegoat. 

Kristen Famiano January 14, 2013 at 03:12 am
I agree that I don't understand the paranoia. I would not know who is carrying & who isn't unless the person was in uniform. For me...it's a non issue. I better not get shot tomorrow, Chuck, lol.
Kristen Famiano January 14, 2013 at 03:16 am
Thank you, Daryl. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I'm perfectly ok with legislation that I don't like...if I can see the logic and rationale. This means it has to be well thought out. I think VP Biden will be giving remarks on Tuesday. We'll see how it goes:-) I agree that they will be bringing the quick hit.
Chuck Anesi January 14, 2013 at 03:33 am
Thanks, Kristen. Perhaps Biden will suggest we take a good hard look at how screwed up mental health care is, and see what we can do about it. I don't have a lot of faith in Biden's intellect however -- he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer by any means.
David Weaver January 14, 2013 at 02:33 pm
Kristen, Daryl and Chuck I have enjoyed reading your posts. Obviously this is a difficult, complex social issue and finding an answer to satisfy everyone will be challenging if not impossible. I hope our elected officials do not make knee-jerk simple fix reactions and take the time to assemble legislation that will solve most, if not all the issues.
CC January 14, 2013 at 02:53 pm
You might argue that people who are overly obsessed with protecting themselves from a rogue government have a mental issue as well. It's time to find a solution that allows for reasonable and logical gun control while still supporting of the second amendment. Stronger background checks, eliminating high volume magazine clips, and banning high end military weapons are all things that can be done without infringing on a persons 2nd amendment rights.
I also believe that mental health awareness is just as important as an improvement in mental health care.
Carol Jackson January 14, 2013 at 02:56 pm
I have been in a somewhat different position -- trying to help an adult relative get mental illness treatment. I understand that there have been abuses in the past that warrant not giving family members carte blanche re: access to their relatives' medical histories, etc., but it is nearly impossible to get help for someone who does not see that she needs it. In my case, both my husband & brother are medical professors and physicians and STILL it was nearly impossible. I hate to think of what families with fewer advantages go through -- or rather, I can guess -- they give up.
Now that my son has joined the Army, I am very concerned about possibly having to go through the same maze if he has PTSD. My relative was sometimes violent. We did not have guns in the house & so the harm she did involved bruising or cuts, but nothing fatal. Had she been inclined to get a weapon, I would have wanted some legal vehicle available to keep her from doing so. Family members are probably more at risk than the general public. I don't think this relative was ever out to get me or anyone else in the family (with the possible exception of my father). But her moods, including her rages, came on quite suddenly & whoever was in the way was at some risk. For the record, there were 16 mass shootings in the US in 2012 (http://www.thenation.com/blog/171774/fifteen-us-mass-shootings-happened-2012-84-dead#). Your article spoke of highly publicized ones -- even so, I believe there were more than 2.
Carol Jackson January 14, 2013 at 03:12 pm
One other point: the current mental health system is based on the premise that you have to know you need help to get it, even though a symptom of many mental illnesses is that you do not understand that you need help.You have to know how to navigate all the complex barriers our society puts up for getting help when your mind is not in the best shape, by definition.
At one point, my relative was certain that God had told her how to solve poverty in the world, especially for children, that she had written this solution down on an envelope, but she could not find the envelope. Her anguish over that envelope's loss led her to call 911, but that level of psychosis, absent a threat to her own life or another's, was not enough to get her treatment without her consent. At one point, my relative was seeing a psychologist & she signed the forms necessary for him to talk with me. However, those forms have to be renewed annually, and they lapsed without my being aware of it (the relative lived in a different state, so I was not involved weekly or anything). At that point, the psychologist was not even allowed to call me to tell me that the papers had lapsed although I was trying to get in touch with him because I was concerned that the relative was on the verge of becoming homeless. These are the kinds of barriers I'm talking about.
Chuck Anesi January 14, 2013 at 04:15 pm
CC, I tend to agree on stronger background checks, and I would also require that all firearms not under the direct control of the owner be secured in an approved, locked container (a gun safe). Interestingly, though it is perfectly legal to own a machine gun in most jurisdictions as long as the provisions of the National Firearms Act are complied with, machine guns are almost never used in crimes. Reason is the high cost of these guns (~5k and up) and the trouble required to buy them (approval of local police, full fingerprints and approval of local police and BATF).
The irrationality of the "assault weapons" hysteria is easy to show. I will do that below in a reply to Carol Jackson.
Chuck Anesi January 14, 2013 at 04:40 pm
Carol, according to the FBI there were 358 murders committed with rifles (which of course includes assault rifles) in 2010, compared to 6,009 with handguns and 373 with shotguns. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
This makes a fixation on assault rifles quite bizarre. Even more bizarre is the notion that 88 dead in mass shootings (the link you cite), which are a trivial proportion of firearms homicides and an infinitesimal (OK, finite by vanishingly small) proportion of total U.S. deaths (2.5 million in 2011) is a major public health problem. Just because something is sensational does not make it a big problem. In my blog post http://troy.patch.com/blog_posts/relax-youre-not-gonna-be-shot I attribute this bizarre fixation to the "availability heuristic". Coupled that with the sociological notion of "moral panic" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic and you have a good explanation for the current perseveration over "assault weapons". I'm old enough to remember many moral panics, starting with switchblade hysteria, moving on to child kidnappings, then to "Satanic Ritual Abuse" and daycare hysteria of the 80's, and now to "assault weapons". It never seems to occur to those participating in these hysterical outbreaks that they are acting like 16th century peasants, but they are.
Chuck Anesi January 14, 2013 at 05:03 pm
Carol, I agree the mental health system is underfunded and beset by regulations that inhibit even the most compassionate intervention. I don't get it. At the same time, of course, we seem to have no problem in spending a couple hundred thousand dollars of public funds keeping terminally ill nonagenarians alive for an extra month. Go figure.
Carol Jackson January 14, 2013 at 05:11 pm
To the best of my knowledge, I made one small aside re: guns in my comments. My main point was that it's very difficult to get mental illness properly treated whether you are suffering from the disease or whether you are concerned about a family member with a disease -- even if you're the next of kin. I said NOTHING about rifles or assault weapons. Your reaction says more about your mind than what I wrote.
That said, let me be clear. I have lived with a person who was sometimes psychotic. When that person was BOTH psychotic AND in a rage, that person could be violent. When that person was violent, she used the weapons available to her. Since we did not have guns in our home, those weapons were her fists, her fingernails, objects she found to throw, and, on one occasion, a kitchen knife. No one was ever killed, if for no other reason than those weapons rarely kill or if they do, you have to be at very close proximity to the person wielding them. We were all good at running when we had to. No one ever called the police. Blood & constant wariness, but not stats, were left behind. Based on my lived experience, I do think that if someone seeks to get a gun, law enforcement officials ought to provide people who know things about that person -- such as the things that 4 members of my family had direct, personal knowledge of with our relative -- an opportunity for a hearing where their concerns could be considered.
Judy Fritts January 14, 2013 at 06:08 pm
I have worked with the mentally ill for 37 years and cared for them on a daily basis. Here are some facts. Usually as with most people somewhere in their history is the possibility of violence and someone has seen it witnessed it or been a part of it. But was either ignored or they did not reach out at all. families are the last to realize the illness unless its major. We could help our innocent society by making professionals more responsibile for the care they give . The government handed the monies to mental health and they seem to be their own boss as to who gets help and how much. we will need to have those in charge that do not have these diagnosis and those who can balance that society should have first priority to safety. A little less for the sick who cannot help themselves and a lil more consideration for our babies the vuneralble of societies. There are several dynamics involved to help us but get the money under someone elses control so it doesn't become their concern human nature can be a mess.
David Weaver January 14, 2013 at 09:49 pm
Thank God you or your loved ones were not seriously injured or worse. Like I wrote, mental health and this link to gun legislation is complex. I hope our elected officials take the time to sort this out without the undue influence of gun activists -pro or con- and come up with the proper legislation.
Dennis January 14, 2013 at 10:25 pm
Blame the item, not the person...typical bureaucracy at work. The worst school rampage in US history happened right here in Bath. MI, killing around 36 people. Weapon of choice? Pipe bombs. Should we ban house piping at all hardware stores? Makes no sense you say? Oklahoma bombing killed 168 people, and many children. Weapon? Uhaul and fertilizer. Ban them? Drunk drivers kill FAR more people and children daily, over and over. Weapons? Autos and alcohol. Ban them?? Nope. Same logic applies.
I can't stand the question "why does anyone NEED an assault rifle?" IMO, it's not about NEED. Why does anyone need a Corvette/Viper/Lambo that goes 200 MPH? That is illegal to do everywhere I know, and yes, they do kill people (in wrecks from incompetent drivers driving at high speeds). Point is, it's not entirely about need, but about want. As a law-abiding, upstanding, no-criminal-record, background-checked citizen, why can't I? If it's good enough for police use to protect me, it's good enough for me to use when the police aren't there (which they will NEVER be with me when I may need protection). Fallacy of "assault" weapons, they do not shoot any faster than regular old hunting rifles, unless ILLEGALLY modified as is currently against the law, which we know criminals do not follow. Bans were tried before, with no change in results over a DECADE. What makes anyone think it'll be different now?
Dennis January 14, 2013 at 10:25 pm
CRIMINALS follow a path of least resistance, such a school full of kids - or a movie theater - with unarmed adults? Not much. See the pattern for what it is... gun free zones KILL.
cookiepro2 January 14, 2013 at 11:48 pm
I wonder Kristen and Carol, if some distinction can be made between the truely dangerous, violent individuals who are mentally ill and those that are taking anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medication. As Judy mentioned, if there is something in a person's medical history that they have exhibited violence and a psychosis, or that family members sought help for their violence, or sought to commit them...could that be checked if such a person were to seek to buy a gun, or if a family member that they resided with wanted to buy a gun (make sure such an individual is following safety protocals). There's lots of complexity here with possible violations of privacy, and putting people on databases on the basis of someone's opinion of serious mental illness, is it the road to Big Brother?
Carol, my sympathies, I can imagine the difficulties in getting help for a relative in this age of HIPAA. I probably could not get any info on my college age child's health condition if I wanted to, even though they're still my dependent...need to get a power of health attorney for him to sign, but how would you get a resistant, psycotic, mentally ill relative to agree to that...probably need to get appointed guadian, examinations, court, lawyers, red tape..how many people would do that for a distant relative in the interest of the safety of society?
Chuck Anesi January 15, 2013 at 12:33 am
Carol, you said "For the record, there were 16 mass shootings in the US in 2012 (http://www.thenation.com/blog/171774/fifteen-us-mass-shootings-happened-2012-84-dead#). Your article spoke of highly publicized ones -- even so, I believe there were more than 2."
Don't complain if I respond to a comment about mass shootings by talking about mass shootings. Also, no idea what "I believe there were more than 2" remark is about.
Chuck Anesi January 15, 2013 at 12:39 am
cookiepro2, I think the answer is simple: consider whether the person is a danger to others. A person with a drinking problem is a far greater menace to the public, from drunk driving, battery, or homicide, than a person taking lexapro (or whatever) for social anxiety (matter of fact, as Kristen noted, such individuals present a lower than normal risk of violence.)
James Kelly January 15, 2013 at 02:45 pm
The second amendment is a political right to self-defense against all manner of criminal activity. It has nothing to do with deer hunting. This amendment protects ownership of military small arms. Today this means semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines - not flintlock muskets. FBI statistics say, I believe, that more murders are committed with hammers and clubs than with such rifles.
David Weaver January 15, 2013 at 04:01 pm
That's nice James but what is your point? Please expound on your statement.
jholeton jr January 15, 2013 at 04:20 pm
One of the problems with this issue is that the Democrat Politicians are focusing on civilian mental health issues only! Last year, there were a minimum of (2) cases where the NYPD shot into a crowd & wounded over 13 bystanders. Why hasnt Governor Cuomo ever addressed these mass shootings by police? You have to remember that the NYPD has advanced weapons training & shoot weekly. There is absolutely no reason for them killing innocent civialians other than a lapse in judgement. When the Obama Administration wants to begin to address police mental health issues I will consider contacting the NRA. Until then, I will put all of my political & financial support behind the NRA in fighting every measure that the Democrats & the Obama Administration enacts! Any Democrat or Republican that signs the assault weapons ban will be recalled! Period!!!!
Carol Jackson January 15, 2013 at 05:08 pm
The privacy guards for psychological/psychiatric care were in place long before HIPAA. If you have a relative who is mentally ill, you are playing a balancing game. Most of us don't want to call the cops or attempt forced admissions (& that's such a losing game that the case has to be black & white before the hospital will help). Most of us, including psychiatrists, are bad (worse than random chance) at predicting. My guess about what this relative might have done if she had access to a gun was based on what she did with access to kitchen items. I also assumed her violence would grow worse over time. It hasn't -- even before she finally got treatment, her psychosis grew worse, but the violence diminished. I assumed she would only direct violence towards family members -- I won't know whether that was a correct prediction until she dies, but so far that's been true. It wouldn't surprise me if that was true of Adam Lanza or Jared Loughner... until it stopped being true. How do you know?
Until I stopped living in the same house with this relative, my primary concern was violence. It then became that she might become homeless. To be in a position to help her, I couldn't kick in some punitive legal process such as calling the cops. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they stop being family. To make wise decisions about who it's safe to trust with a gun, I don't think criminal checks should be the only source.
Carol Jackson January 15, 2013 at 05:18 pm
I am recommending a system more like that used to ascertain custody of a child -- you don't (or shouldn't) have to be a criminal to not have physical custody of your child. The judgments are left to a more disinterested person than bitter & warring factions (a judge), conflicting testimony is considered, etc. I do respect Kirsten's original point that mentally ill people don't show up in crime stats more than others. My main point is that there may be confounding issues re: why that's so.
cookiepro2 January 15, 2013 at 07:10 pm
Just read AP article that NY state is about to pass a legislation. One of the provisions (specifically dealing with mental illness and guns) is:
".... a therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat to use a gun illegally would be required to report it to a mental health director who would have to notify the state. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her" Would be interested in Kristen's and Carol's opinions given their familiarity with the mental health care system.
Carol Jackson January 15, 2013 at 08:42 pm
If a therapist heard from a patient (& by the way people see therapists without being classifiable as mentally ill) discuss a desire to cause physical harm to others or to discuss harm already caused others, why would it be so important that the speech re: the harm involve a gun for it to be reportable?
Also, one thing I don't recall seeing discussed is what's a mental illness? People can have depression that's no more threatening than a cold, or it can be fatal. Diseases/conditions historically classified as neurological (e.g., dementia or CTE (& PTSD may be a form of CTE)) cause significant behavior changes. Diseases historically classified as psychological (e.g., mood disorders, including bipolar disorder & depression, & schizophrenia) have a physiological component. Do you really want to codify into law a scientific understanding that is understood to be imperfect? Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about specific behaviors (including periods of psychosis or making threats) that would cause a license to be not granted (for a time) or suspended? I recommend that there be a mechanism for granting/not granting a gun license that's based on behaviors/threats that's not based solely on a mindless checklist. & fair enough to insist that anyone, like a family member, who suggests the applicant has a problem have to somehow corroborate that.
cookiepro2 January 15, 2013 at 11:36 pm
True,it looks like they are trying to codify something that involves subjective judgment on the therapist's part. It is a broader philosophical question too, if a professional (therapist or clergy) hears something in confidence, that may involve potential harm to others, are they obligated to report it, or are they bound by professional ethics to keep it private? How would such a law be enforced?
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Frustrated Old Man January 26, 2013 at 05:43 pm
Be careful what you ask for. This can be a slippery slope. Who decides if you're mentally ill or not? Where do they draw the line? What if someone overheard you say..."If he cheats on me I'm going to kill him", and reports you? Once they determine you're too unstable to own a gun, how will that affect your employment?
How long before government might require a mental evaluation before you're allowed to obtain a drivers license, or be approved for a loan/mortgage? What about marriage, having children? Will you be allowed to vote? Think it can't happen? Think again!
cookiepro2 January 26, 2013 at 10:57 pm
Upon reconsideration, I think a law by which a "therapist reports a patient's mass killing intention to law enforcement officials" is definitely not on the slippery slope. The NY legislation I see as more of a CYA for mental health practictioners to do what any of us would do if we heard of a threat, it is a good and safe measure for society. It's a far cry from keeping databases of who's sought mental health care and cross-checking before issuing gun permits.
Mackey Chandler January 27, 2013 at 12:46 pm
Re: Carol's relative who has not managed -yet- to harm the family. She wants the right to be consulted if that person seeks a weapon. Yet she says: No one ever called the police.
Why? You were assaulted and already attacked with a knife. Dead is dead. I suppose you will be forced to call the police when Uncle Harry had a chef's knife stuck in his chest. Just be aware if police come out and your relative is waving a knife around they will shoot her dead. That's the sort of outcome you get when you put off dealing with it until it can't be ignored any longer.

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