My bad, Mike. Tom is not the Chair any longer, however he is still on the House Education Committee. Please see:
http://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeInfo.aspx?comkey=5. And I couldn't agree more that it would be preferable that this legislation not be haphazardly rushed through during the lame duck. However, if the legislation stands as it is currently written, charter schools will not have any standards to meet, making it hard for parents to make an informed decision. Choice is good. Informed choice is better. Although, there have been a few occasions when I've needed a plumber and I flipped open the yellow pages, closed by eyes and slapped my finger down...

I find it interesting that those opposed to charter schools are mainly concerned about the idea the charter school will make a profit (excuse the dirty word) and that a CEO (that evil creature) will be earning a good living. I don't seem to hear anything about how our public school children rank internationally. I don't hear anything about how many public school teachers themselves send their own children to private schools. I don't hear anything about the education of the teachers themselves. As I remember it, my son had a math teach in middle school whose college major was Physical Ed. As I remember it, he had a high school teacher who was worthless to say the least. All I hear is how the public school system in this country always needs more money, more money, more money. Paying that worthless teacher more money who cannot be fired for the next 10,20,30 years maybe among the reasons that some parents like that they at least have a choice. Also, remember that no parent is either forced to send their child to a charter school or more importantly to keep them there. The only monopoly that big government is for is public education and the results of that were on Nov 6th.

Try again Lee. It isn't just the profit. It is the double standard creating unfair competition, the lack of complete local control, the overreach of "big government", the total lack of accountability, and the arrogance of the GOP that lets them think they can take apart my child's school and deliver my tax dollars to their corporate pals unchallenged. The fact that none of you know the difference between public and private and private for-profit is exactly why you shouldn't be making public policy decisions.

Mike...I have asked countless people including you in previous discussion to show me standardized test data (MME) proving the charter schools are superior. How about AYP? I have no doubt there are some excellent charter schools. In my experience, they are few and far between. I have seen Macinac Center reports, but I want an apples to apples comparison through state testing data.

As a taxpayer...I want choice too. I don't have kids, but I pay taxes and should have a say in where your kids go to school, because charter schools are public schools. You are assuming that choice is best for your kids. You seem like an intelligent man who would do homework and find the best Macinac center loving charter school, but it is important to me that Rochester Schools reflect the community and be able to appropriately accept & reject based off of nondiscriminatory grounds like class size, credits, etc. in this context my voice as a taxpayer does not get trumped because I am not a parent. Just because you think it's best doesn't make it so. The same goes for me. Parents are important stakeholders...but they are part of a greater team of people, including community members. Governor Snyder would be taking away the voice of the community.

Kristen... Most honest answer I've seen in this debate. "but I pay taxes and should have a say in where your kids go to school".

I am serious... you are absolutely right. Nobody else here had the courage to make such a bold statement.

Wow Dorothy...where to start.
1. Charters CAN NOT hand pick anybody. If student apply they must be admitted. If there isn't enough room for all that apply, admissions must be based on a lottery.
2. Zero accountability...simply NOT true. Charter school authorizers are much more involved in monitoring the schools they authorize then the State is with traditional public schools. IN ADDITION, all the same student tests are required for charter school students and are published just like all other public schools. Parents can look them up online. If they don't like what they see they can move their child to a different school. In traditional public schools the family would be required (in most cases) to move to another district.
3. Charter schools can (AN DO) go out of business. How can they be more accountable?
4. Charter schools have a school Board just like traditional districts. Same over site.

The issue here is competition. if traditional districts are losing students it's their OWN FAULT! Do a better job and there would be much fewer charters. PERIOD!

Start focusing on how well students are doing not wasting your time on accusations that charters are unfair.

Yes, this is the "The Sky is Falling" tour from Dr. Markavitch, the $200K+ per year Oakland County ISD Supt., who is attempting to preserve her power and control.

Informational... hehe.

Just google it, Mike. The charter school horror stories are everywhere you look. The facts don't support your fantasy. The corporate lobbyists want every dime - military, social security, medicare, medicaid, public education - they won't be content until they have every last penny. The only public spending they oppose is the money they don't get their hands on.

Eva Moskowitz, the head of the Success Academy chain in New York City is paid about $400,000. Geoffrey Canada, who oversees the Harlem Children’s Zone, is paid between $400,000-500,000. Deborah Kenney of Harlem Village Academy is paid more than $400,000. This is considerably more than the chancellor of the New York City public schools, who is paid $250,000.

It's perfectly OK for your corporate people to pay whatever you want. You say talent costs money. Unless its teachers, cops or fireman - they you want them at a Walmart wage. Hypocrites!

Success Academy... huge success: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_secret_of_success_NLXIUz0iN5ldTuSrFWcVJN

Geoffrey Canada... Waiting for Superman... you are going to criticize his RESULTS in Harlem?

The achieve results, and people are EAGER to go to their schools, and you somehow have a problem with that?

In case you don't know it, Rochester Community Schools isn't in Harlem. It is one of the best schools in the state, and Snyder is taking a hatchet to it.

What waiting for Superman doesn't tell you is that in the Finnish education system, much cited in the film as the best in the world, teachers are—gasp!—unionized and granted tenure, and families benefit from a cradle-to-grave social welfare system that includes universal daycare, preschool and healthcare, all of which are proven to help children achieve better results at school.

In other words, Waiting for Superman is a moving but vastly oversimplified brief on American educational inequality. It was a propaganda piece.

There is some rumor floating around about ONE that made that. Can you provide a link?

And meanwhile... here is one to show this whole notion that this is some effort to lower teachers salaries is nonsense.

Why A Middle School In New York Is Paying Teachers $125,000 A Year
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-equity-project-charter-school-pays-teachers-125000-a-year-2012-4

"If research shows teachers are the most important resource in student growth and outcome, why are we not investing in it?" said Zeke Vanderhoek, who wrote the charter for the school and is the principal of TEP. "We at TEP want to serve as a model of how to attract, retain, and treat teachers."

When the school opened three years ago, it created buzz around the salary it offered teachers. Now, Vanderhoek said he believes teachers come to TEP realizing that the school has set out to change the way the education system works, and it's not just about the money.

The teaching profession draws from the bottom third of college graduates, Vanderhoek said. While summers off are appealing, the standard teacher salary isn't much of a draw for America's most intellectual.

"By investing in teachers, we signify to society at large that teachers are actually valued, and we transform who goes into teaching," Vanderhoek said. "Offer a competitive salary, and it becomes a more attractive profession to talented people."

Had to comment on your 9:19pm comment that Rochester Community schools is one of the best schools in the state. If that's the case...Wow we're in bad shape.

Specifically:
Percent of students NOT PASSING MEAP in Math
3rd grade - 35%
6th grade - 27%
7th grade - 25%
8th grade - 44%

Percent FAILING Science (only given in 5th and 8th grades
5th grade - 60%
8th grade - 64%
Remember these are the % FAILING.

Finally is the percentage of High School kids NOT passing the college readiness test...57.6%

These number come directly from the State public reporting site. Wnat to looking for yourself, go to https://www.mischooldata.org/Default.aspx

Are you really proud of these numbers???

Mike... thought you would like this link.

How much money a year does a waiter make in New York City?

"At the highest end of the spectrum, a waiter/waitress at a high-class place would still make around $50 a night as their base salary (again, either as an hourly wage minus taxes, or as a flat fee), plus around $700 a night. That would be around $750 a night, times 5 days a week is $3,750 a week. That number ($3,750 a week) times 50 weeks a year would be $187,500 a year (minus taxes, of course)."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_a_year_does_a_waiter_make_in_New_York_City

Charter School teachers make $125,000 and a high end waiter/waitress $187,500.

He hasn't given us a reason... because he is not proposing to privatize the schools.

Oh but he is. And he's playing fast and lose with our money and our kids. You can play semantics all you want, but only people who watch Fox News will believe you.

A charter school mogul was charged today in a multimillion-dollar fraud case by the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Dorothy June Hairston Brown, who received accolades for students' test scores and gained notoriety for collecting large salaries and suing parents who questioned her actions, was indicted on multiple counts of wire fraud, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering.

Brown, 75, and four executives from her charter schools, were charged with defrauding three charter schools of more than $6.5 million in taxpayer funds.

U.S. Attorney Zane David Memeger announced that a federal grand jury had returned a 62-count indictment against Brown and four of her trusted employees.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-25/news/32828937_1_charter-school-planet-abacus-ad-prima

Thank goodness they were prosecuted.

Here is another interesting list:
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html

Should we ban churches now because of a few bad (awful) people?

You don't ban industries but you do regulate them because business in intrinsically greedy and never more so than today. Corporate welfare is the biggest drain on the US economy.

I have a big issue with text book companies. I have a big issue with administrators. I have a big issue with bad teachers and over performing teachers being paid the same as the guy next to them. But you don't waste taxpayer dollars reinventing the wheel, and you don't throw public money out the door without strings attached. You view is so partisan and ideological that you leap to assumptions that reinforce exactly what you think. And if you don't like the premiums schools pay for health insurance, talk to your for-profit insurance companies. In all, the CEOs of America's 10 largest health insurance companies made $228.1 million in salary and stock options during 2009, according to the liberal advocacy group Health Care For America Now. There are things that you just don't make money on. Jails, health care, and education are three of them. They are not business, they are our civic repsonsibility.

OK... had my chuckle for the day. You can rant about the salaries of charter CEO's who are "profiting"... but then have no comment about the companies who already profit in education, nor do you have any comment about the salaries of the union leaders in education.

Sorry Amy but when an author of ANY subject get's the facts wrong (corrected by poster Mike Reno) you lose major credibility. Diane's well informed ? HUH ?
As much as I appreciated the debate, it seems that any idea that goes against the status quo of the public school system the swift rebuttal by many posters is "how dare you suggest otherwise", blah, blah blah.
I go back to when the priviatazion of both the transportation dept. and the cafeteria services was suggested there was a similar outcry for those same voices who said it wouldn't work, its blasphemy, etc.
These new systems seem to be working just fine.
Charter Schools are here to stay and they provide a viable alternative to public education.
It's good that Amy works in the public education system but I don't think that not working in public education makes anyone less knowledgable about a particular topic. Did you ever check the backround of the majority of our elected officials ?
Yikes!!

Thanks dano. For the record, I made a mistake also. I knew McMillen was no longer the chair. I went to the site and quickly scanned the list, and missed his name. I thought he was spending more of his time on Government Oversight committee. I stated that he wasn't on the ed committee... when in fact he still is.

I love that moniker, Diane. "Your-education-tax-dollars-not-be-used-exclusively-for-education" charter schools! I think that legislators and Governor Snyder finally overstepped their bounds. The sleeping giant parents are about to wake up! Our children are too precious to waste!

Back to that hypothetical $3000 surplus per elementary student... If we, as a district, found out that $3000/per elementary student wasn't being used on education as it was earmarked, but rather was being siphoned off to pay someone a ridiculous salary for instance, I think we'd be really hot about it. There might even be pitchforks and flaming torches. But if that same money is going into the private sector as "profit", it's perfectly acceptable. Nuff said.

Ridiculous siphoning, as in $20K per year in health benefits per person, or $20K per year in retirement benefits per person?

Or did you mean $180K in severance pay siphoning?

Or is that stuff OK, and you were thinking of something different?

If they spend tax money on profit and CEOs, that's perfectly alright. If we spend money paying a teacher's salary, that's a waste and a disgrace. Their condescending, denigrating, and totally dismissive attitude towards the entire academic community clearly demonstrates how narrow minded, arrogant, ignorant, and ideologically driven these people are. They think they are smarter and better than the rest of us. All they care about is getting what they want. I have watched arrogant administrations come through the state house door and destroy everything predecessors built with taxpayers money only to add nothing of substance. This Ann Arbor group is the worst. Snyder's head is so full of himself it's a wonder he can fit through doors.

What was that saying about a pot and a kettle?

You can say that again. Corporations never saw a government dollar that they didn't think they were entitled to.

It's the other way around. The government thinks its entitled to money earned by its citizens and business. Or at least 53% of it's citizens.

Taxpayers and businesses have to fight to keep the money they earn.

And yes, Diane Ravich is an interesting person to follow. A staunch defender of the "give us more money, but leave us alone" crowd. A master spinner if there ever was one.

Did you watch any of the presentation with Michael Van Beek? The video is online.

It talked about the spin soldiers, who work these comment boards to defend the status quo schools... much like we see in this very thread. It called for help... so that we don't give the status quo folks a free ride.

Michael Van Beek is a smart, sharp individual.

And your characterization of a "business relationship" with Michael is flat wrong. I take time off of work to do those sorts of presentations, and do not get paid. I've given presentations to parent groups around the state... and do it without pay (I even cover my own expenses). I've written numerous articles and participated in group panels and interviews, and have never been paid.

And I engage in these discussions (and endure the disparaging comments) from people like you and Dorothy without demanding and attacking your background or personal history. Heck, I don't even know you identity... at least I use my real name!

Oh Daryl. Every time somebody doesn't agree with your right wing propaganda, you come along and attack the messenger. The positioning by special interest groups is the lobbying the corporations, private schools, and Mackinac Center are doing to raid another public fund. When you look at all the student loan debt and defaults, they belong to private schools "like" yours and like Baker College. Now you crazy free market fools want to throw more billions in their direction. Like I said. The only government spending you people oppose is government money that you don't get.

This is why the money Snyder is throwing at private for profits needs to be regulated. Just because they are "private" companies doesn't make them good. If anybody should understand the need to protect the credibility of the education and training system, it should be you.

"Default levels are typically worst at for-profit schools, which are significantly more expensive than public institutions and have higher drop-out rates, according to a recent Congressional investigation. The probe, conducted by the Senate education committee, found that 54% of for-profit students dropped out without a degree during the 2008-2009 school year. It also found that bachelor's programs at for-profits cost 20% more than at public schools, while associate's degrees cost four times more." http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/28/pf/college/student-loan-defaults/index.html

Dorothy,

Spin it any way you want, if you read your comment you did put us in that category along with Baker College. It was meant to discredit and distract. Baker is another great school that focuses on job placement and give a real value to their students, job placement is key.

Job creators want employees that are trained in real hands on application skills and that is the idea is to get to work and contributing to the economy. Call us Free Market freaks, but we are focused on metrics that deliver value to our customers. Why can't we expect the same from our public government and schools?

All we see is a double standard and a real resistance to metrics that measure performance. The schools have no problem measuring the performance of their students by giving them a grade. Why not measure the schools also? The double standard is the private schools get measured and held accountable, but the public schools do not.

Let's ignore your snotty tone, and mine the interesting nugget you've presented.

Our system of universities is outstanding. Unlike our k12 system, people around the world aspire to come here for our universities.

It is a hybrid model, with public financing, private financing, student loans, scholarships, and even contributions from evil corporations.

The costs are absurd, and we could insult each other for hours over our interpretation of why the costs are high, and by they are rising. So for the sake of discussion, let's defer that for another time.

For now... I think the question is how do we make our K12 systems as equally respected and effective as our university system?

If we do allow choice... then maybe there is some risk of extreme cost escalation, just like we see in post secondary. But it comes with a corresponding escalation in results, just like we see in post secondary.

I wonder how the public would respond to a call for higher education funding if that were the case? I would certainly support more educatin funding if I thought the resources were being put to good use, and we were seeing clear results.

Dorothy,

I have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that I beat the community colleges and universities on the contact hourly rate. In every case we are cheaper per contact hour by a significant amount. This was in my report to the State. I opened up my books and gave them all of the metrics we used to measure ourselves including value.

The community colleges and universities only give an overview of the subject with many other classes beyond to get to the contact hours of our program. In all of these classes they only cover theory, not practical hands on application and there is no on site real job at real company experience. You are not comparing apples when you state we are expensive.

Read the report I distributed showing the actual facts and then comment on what you interpret. You know our website; it is there for all to see with complete transparency.

Because we take it to the application level our students get hired, the theory is great, but just one small part of the subject. The Job Creators want people who can do the work, not sit back and talk about how it could be done in a theoretical conversation. The private sector only needs doers, not talkers.

Another interesting thought...

In the university system, we have unequal results.

We have that too in K12.

I think one of the underlying questions is how do we address that?

There are really two problems.

The first is the underachieving districts. Schools who have students who are not achieving to basic minimum levels.

The second is the so-called high performing districts, like Rochester, who are quite successful at getting kids to the minimum levels, but have mixed results at fully challenging students, and helping them to achieve to their full potential.

I simply don't think it is possible for one institution -- public education -- to achieve all of this alone. That is, unless we allow them to diversify and specialize.

That is the fundamental purpose of allowing charters.

Just as it is morally wrong to allow underachieving students to languish in underperforming schools, I think it is EQUALLY wrong to allow high achieving students to languish in the traditional public schools we have today.

These schools are a poor fit for both groups.

So should we hold the high achievers back, as we are doing now, because traditional public schools haven't solved the problem with the struggling learners?

If we had the means to send every young adult to college, would we expect them all to go to community college, when some would better benefit -- and ultimately benefit society -- by attending a distinguished university?

Mike Reno: Snotty tone? LOL - like I care. Your attitude ain't all that hot either.

You are comparing apples & oranges. People come from around the world for k-12 too. They just need their parents to bring them. K-12 & universities have different customers. One is five & can't tie his shoes, possibly not even speak English or have a functioning role model in the home. The other is 18 and mobile. One the money follows the student, the other keeps the money no matter where the student goes. One gets to pass on their revenue shortfalls to their customers and charge fees, the other is prohibited from doing that by law. One gets huge endowments from rich alumni, the other does not. One gets to select only those students they want to serve, and the other does not. One doesn't have people like you creating daily chaos and morale problems in the system with daily attacks against personnel and funding , and the other does.

Daryl - I helped you compile that report. Do you need a bow? I've said at least 4x now that you operate a good school. Your curriculum is relevant, you have real projects on which your students work, you provide them with critical hands on work experience, and your placement rate is high. At least all of this used to be true. Since I retired, I don't know anymore. Expensive doesn't mean the product or service can't have a good value, it means some people can't afford the deal no matter how good a deal it might be. If someone is willing to cut their price by 75%, and the remaining 25% is still way above my head - I can't afford it. You really need to pay better attention to the words on the page. Do you know how stupid the phrase "job creators" actually is? The job creators are the people who buy the product or service. Your "job creators" just want a free ride. First the country/state/county has to pay them to relocate there, and then the taxpayer has to pay to train their employees. Corporate welfare is the biggest drain on the taxpayers in this country. Without wars, bailouts, and government contracts, they'd all be bankrupt.

Dorothy, I think just about all of the differences you mention above would be solved by offering choice.

Especially the part about having to deal with my "daily chaos".

You need to remember that I am stuck in your system because of your rules. Offer choice... and you'll be rid of all of us pesky parents that have high expectations and high hopes for our children, and the schools that serve them.

Dorothy,

We view the world differently and that is fine. A few years ago we worked together and even with our different views we effectively worked together to have a major impact on over 250 unemployed technical professionals getting back into meaningful employment. I still am in touch with many of these fine folks and they appreciated the work WE both did that helped them in a very difficult time.

This is proof that private and public sectors can work together to make a real impact on people's life even if we view things differently. WE did this together and the average money spent per student was just under $8,000, pretty impressive in a tough down economy. As you know, the for-profit school demonizing and personal attacks shut this effective program down and pushed all the money to the community colleges that did not focus on getting jobs. The placement rates plummeted.

Based on this experience I am very suspect of the political whims and attacks on for-profit schools. So I am sorry if I offended you, but the blanket statement that for-profit schools are bad is just plain wrong and I take offense to be put in that category. We have good and bad in all areas, blanket statements and actions do no good and in our case shut down an effective program that served the citizens well and was cost effective.

But that is my opinion and view. I will now follow Mike's request to focus on this k-12 matter and let the other subject discussion end.

Rochester's spends roughly $10,300 per pupil, FYI.

And while I will let most of your nasty sniping pass... the "chipping away at ... gifted and talented programs"... is completely off base.

That was the first motivating factor for me some 10 years ago to get involved with this nonsense... the fact that the schools don't adequately challenge children, particularly the gifted ones.

I sat on that school board from one mind-numbing meeting to the next listening to excuse after excuse about why they couldn't / shouldn't / won't offer programs for the high achievers. (And why they wouldn't spread some fantastic reading intervention programs for those struggling to learn, for that matter),

Meanwhile, they have $1000 per participate to fund secondary sports. ($1.5 million for roughly 1500 participants.).

I've listened to your sort of argument for years. Unfortunately, no matter how much you extract in taxes, it will never be enough to satisfy you.

Here's some "other" facts about Rochester

Specifically:
Percent of students NOT PASSING MEAP in Math
3rd grade - 35%
6th grade - 27%
7th grade - 25%
8th grade - 44%

Percent FAILING Science (only given in 5th and 8th grades
5th grade - 60%
8th grade - 64%
Remember these are the % FAILING.

Finally is the percentage of High School kids NOT passing the college readiness test...57.6%

These number come directly from the State public reporting site. Wnat to looking for yourself, go to https://www.mischooldata.org/Default.aspx

Are you really proud of these numbers???

Continued:
Teacher pay is low given the education, responsibility, and long hours required of them. Their benefits are high because health insurance and CEO bonuses keep rising, and the banks (more private sector acumen) gambled with and crashed the pension funds of workers everywhere. Firing a teacher is as simple as due process, and you can't blame the teachers or unions for incompetent or lazy principals. Bad teachers exist because principals don't do their jobs. If you want to complain about RCS, let's start at the top instead of scapegoating the employees. Each building is a fiefdom, and the principal its chieftain. Enforcement is a problem because things that should be in Board policy aren't, and things that don't have to be there exist in abundance. Good teachers dislike bad teachers more than anyone, and nowhere in this march to so called "reform" has Snyder or ever asked for teacher input. You know why? Because they have an ideological agenda, and they don't care.

OMG, there are hundreds of "likes", and a few of them are even people,who are not employed by a public school.

Thanks, Mark. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Re: “Hope has become a strategy?”

I think you misspieled “Hype” ...

Yet both are educational failures! "Charter schools were less and less viewed as a way of improving public schools and more and more seen as a direct competitor and eventual replacement for them. For conservatives, charter schools are an effective weapon for undermining Democratic strength in big cities and teacher unions. For investors, charter schools are cash cows as local non-profit public school laboratories morphed into multi-state non-profit and eventually for profit corporations."** David Morris

Diane Glinski... you blog and it's comments seem nothing more than a turf war between liberals and conservatives... Diane that's unfortunate. The United States' State Department recognizes 195 independent countries around the world. If this country is serious about K-12 public education then the first question we need to ask ourselves is why Finland does it better than anyone else!

*https://charterschoolscareers.silkroad.com/mapsaext/FAQs.html
**http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-morris/charter-schools-and-kudzu_b_1750780.html

OMG, are you kidding?

Mike,

Not kidding... My history lesson is 100% accurate... and history does repeat itself. P.S. nothing "kidding" about our children's future... Mike thanks for your response... just a theory. :)

P.S. America's 1% includes their politicians on their lobbyist payroll.

Diane, that is the PISA-twist that Reverand Markavitch has been preaching to the choir.

She disaggregates the PISA scores for a certain set of demographics, and then attempts to compare them to an entire country.

Our 10-24% poverty rate PISA beats the entire country of Japan.

Hardly an apples to apples, is it?

"The US has a child poverty rate of 23%. Finland has a poverty rate of 5%. When you adjust for poverty, the US ranks #1 over Korea and Finland." Diane don't understand your point? So as a Country we are just to throw out all those non-white ghetto children so your grade point average that is par with white Nordic Finland! BS BS BS!!! Diane do you even have a clue how much corruption there is the Detroit Public School System? Or better yet to prove your comments are completely false... look at this map http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/schools/ then go all the way to the top of the UP still in the BEST category Lake Linden, MI -- then Google the poverty the poverty level of Lake Linden, MI http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty-Lake-Linden-Michigan.html Residents with income below the poverty level 34.2%! Diane if you want to type with me don't BS my points or I promise I will throw you under the bus every time. Your blog is nothing more than right wing vs left wing banter with no real creative solutions for our kids! And Lansing MI only cares about its financial bottom line as a solution to all problems!

Scot, you have completely misunderstood Dianes's point, and are careening down a path that she never took.

Her point was that our schools compare well if you try to examine comparable demographics. She was saying the same thing you are saying... and your flame is completely unwarranted.

Mike... I disagree Michigan is one state one people! We don't see color we are one race called Michiganian! Mike... please don't write people off just to skew the numbers. :)

"Your blog is nothing more than right wing vs left wing banter with no real creative solutions for our kids!"  Diane... typo should have been more clear 'this' blog. I understand your passion but I'm not reading any good solutions with most of these posts. One of my biggest faults is a low tolerance for those who only complain and can not come up with real solutions. :)

I forgot the Detroit News story that got me interested in this.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121203/SCHOOLS/212030425/Quarter-new-teachers-Muskegon-Heights-school-district-quit?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

A quarter of the teachers quit and so did the principal. Mosaica is supposed to be a "leader" in their field. Also, these apparent parasites seem to be drawn to urban districts. Your schools is in chaos mid year... now what? More choices?

I had a snarky comment... Then deleted it. I don't know enough about this arrangement. I thought it was a traditional charter... And I now see It is not.

While you are researching, have you turned up any info on University Prep?

Mike, read the articles. 1434 was a projection based on previous enrolment. This was a EM run public school turned over to Mosaica by their appointed board and the EM. $8.75 million is the minimum. The private company had hoped to grow beyond the 1434 and projected a possible $11 million. They didn't need infrastructure investment, it appears that they just took over existing. So if you are a Muskegon Heights citizen... you have this school or drive your kid to some other school. It appears that the "monopoly" is in private hands.

I saw it briefly. No biggy. Nothing on others except Holly. So it looks like I may have some hard data on the outliers in the distribution. Not "traditional" but run by one of the big charter outfits. Of the 13 closed PSA this year Mosaica ran two. I would never trust them in this case but someone did. I would caution to not look UP too long. The sky may be falling.

Nope... just more frozen pee from a passing airplane.

So why did you reference them? Maybe you were thinking about something other than PISA when you compared us to Finland and Korea?

Scot- you're a big idea person but you just don't think through your big ideas. Your 1,000,000 children over 15 years is over 66,000 per year. wow. "Build these schools in the middle of nowhere" and where do all the teachers, kitchen staff, janitors, etc.,etc live? Where are the water and sewerage systems? Isn't 66,000 students almost twice as large as U-M? Where are the supermarkets, hospitals, drug stores, beauty and barber shops, restaurants for the adults etc.,etc., "out in the middle of nowhere" ?
You state "create public schools for children 9-12."Is that ages 9-12 or grades 9-12?
What if the parents don't want their children away that long. What if some of those children are 2-4 years behind in grade level? Overall your proposal reeks of the "educational camps" of N.Korea, Communist China of the Mao era, and Hitler's youth corps. Scot- go back to the drawing board for some better ideas

Lee...

Thanks of the response... don't see a lot of big ideas on this post... like your thoughts the administrative cost in public schools -- way out of line -- don't compare student per student like the 60's. And I can imagine teaching the Civil War has changed much. Have to see a lot of advertising clients today will type more later.

note: Last I read 1 out of 10 males from urban communities in Michigan are in prison. Cost Michigan over 2 billion -- that's B for billion! per year to house. If we don't spend the money upfront on education will spend it later in our prison system.

Lee... Grades 9-12... You told Patch readers "I am a graduate of Central High school in Detroit" I'll tell Patch readers I am a graduate of Interlochen Arts Academy a private high school with boarding in the middle of nowhere just south of Traverse City Michigan. I thank you for crunching the numbers... to be perfectly honest... I wish our State could rescue even more than 66,000 kids per year. Lee... when I wrote middle of nowhere I did not mean the Sahara Desert. Good schools surrounded by a nice environment filled with kids that do want to learn don't have problems finding great teachers. Lee... please fine my quote where I am mandating parents send their kids to these schools? "2-4 years behind in grade level?" Lee... so what that's a detail that any great education institution can overcome.

Lee... At Interlochen we were all mandated to where a uniform to class, to the cafeteria. A dress uniform the the cafeteria on Sunday. We were all mandated to help out we all had on campus jobs I was a waiter on Sunday. We were all mandated to wash our clothes and keep our rooms clean. We were not allowed to leave the campus, and we were not allowed to have cars. We went to school on Saturday but had Sunday off to attend any Church or Mosque or Synagogue... etc. in the area if we wanted to. We were also off on Monday and we could get on a bus and go into town... Traverse City or the local Ski Resort; they are less expensive on week days. Did anyone complain... NO! The kids I liked to hang around with... some were from ghettos, counted their lucky stars everyday they were there! Interlochen... what's most fascinating as a personal experience -- still to this day those were my best years... every day I felt I had died and gone to heaven. And I didn't grow up and become a Communist.

So Lee... you can Debbie Downer my idea all day long you've never lived it... that's OK. But I'm not into all that afterlife stuff no evidence... so I wish the human race would concentrate more on heaven on earth starting with our children. “We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.” David Brower

Who knows maybe I'll win a multi-million dollar lottery and build a school or meet a Michigan billionaire with a really big heart.

P.S."build these schools" Lee... rich people and corporations that like to put their name on stuff.

University of Michigan--Ann Arbor has a total undergraduate enrollment of 27,407, with a gender distribution of 51.0 percent male students and 49.0 percent female students. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-michigan-9092

Forgive my 3:36 am typo... LOL the word is wear, not where.

It also was mandatory to wear our uniforms off campus... when the school let us go shopping in Traverse City... we wore them with pride.

The "voucher schemes" you're referring to were SPECIFICALLY to fund parochial schools. Bit of history revisionism.

If charters are not wanted, why do parents choose them?

Lee... you taught me well years ago; if your going to publish numbers you better have an accurate source. Or someone like you will come along and throw your comment under the bus. After Al Gore invented the internet... LOL one very important point he left out... before you post anything better find some multiple sources because the internet has no safeguards that everything on it is true; and most blogs are filled with some kind of bias. So what do you do? If you want to sound intelligent go straight to the source.

"The Michigan Legislature and Governor Snyder have agreed on a fiscal year (FY) 2012-13 budget for Michigan government. The Department of Corrections budget for FY 2012-13 is $1,941,485,600, about one-half percent less than the current year budget. There are 14,695 positions funded in the FY 2012-13 budget, down 874 positions from FY 2011-12." www.michigan.gov/documents/corrections/2012-06-08_388546_7.pdf Michigan Department of Corrections June 8th, 2012

Lee... remember, you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Or as John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"In my opinion you also make a mistake in believing that more money spent on education will significantly and directly reduce prison population. What evidence do you have for that?" Lee

Lee. I sincerely respect your opinion... common sense tells me that if one is truly given the opportunity to grow up and become a doctor; instead of growing up in an a school district where the high school graduation rate is 32%... where there is no hope... they won't grow up to become gang leaders and drug dealers. :) http://www.bridges4kids.org/articles/3-08/DetroitNews2-25-08.html

Did you even watch the video, Jon?

First of all, can you point to the "starve" passages? It's a 2 minute video, and the blog link includes a transcript. You made that up.

What he does says is that this – the issue of choice – is an issue that cuts across party lines Parents of both political persuasions believe in it and support it. He was simply cautioning that we not allow it to be branded as a “conservative” issue. He was quite prophetic, don’t you think? Look no further than the hysteria we see on these very Patch boards.

Here are his exact words:

"That has got to be the battle. It will not be as visible. And, in fact, to the extent that we on the right, those of us on the conservative side of the aisle, appropriate education choice as our idea, we need to be a little bit cautious about doing that, because we have here an issue that cuts in a very interesting way across our community and can cut, properly communicated, properly constructed, can cut across a lot of historic boundaries, be they partisan, ethnic, or otherwise.

And so we've got a wonderful issue that can work for Americans. But to the extent that it is appropriated or viewed as only a conservative idea it will risk not getting a clear and a fair hearing in the court of public opinion. So we do need to be cautious about that."

Mike, some more of his exact words. "We need to be cautious about talking too much about these activities." That alone will be the red flag to many.

I posted it out of context on purpose for impact.

The larger context of the video I tend to agree with as a good strategy. I don’t agree with the desired outcome, but he has words of wisdom.

Mr. DeVos uses the word caution three times. Cautious about talking too much, caution regarding the risk of not getting a fair hearing in the court of public opinion, cautious regarding the “relationship, insight, and political sensitivity” of this issue that cuts across so much.

So why ignore his words and make the full frontal blunt force assault now? Mr. DeVos knew this was going to be a long steady push. The main and only issue as I see it now is choice. OK. In general more choices tend to be better. We have more choices with even more coming. However, more bad choices are not value choices; they are just another option that sucks! Yes there are a few exemplary PSAs. FEW! They are the exception not the norm. A rapid expansion of bad schools is just an explosion of failure.

Wrapping these mediocre and worse choices up in in a plethora of bright shiny brochures is just powder on the pig.

The stated objective is REFORM. A method is choice. A metric of success is NOT to SUCK.

Well, the choice part is working.

Marty, describe the expansion you envision? In Rochester... do you see 1 charter in 1 year, and 5 in 5 years? Do you see 20 in five years?

Do you envision 5% of the students availing themselves of the new opportunity? Or, do you 75% seeking choice? What sort of timeframe?

Help me with the vision...

Mike, a little off topic but OK. Rochester has no charters. Not now or in the near term, I don’t think they can or will compete. I’ll tell you what I told the RCS union reps in 2004. “I do NOT fear charters here”! I tried to explain that a “market” for the private enterprise was required and that we don’t have enough dissatisfied customers to supply an adequate customer base.

Expansion is across the state usually located in distressed urban districts. Plenty of potential customers there, desperate for ANY possibility of a brighter future. Past legislation limited charters , now unlimited. One may assume that the immediate removal of restriction would induce rapid growth. Forty something new ones this year with thirteen going out of business is not quite explosive. But more inducement to expand is pending in Lansing, hence my rub with this. Lansing appears hell bent on expanding ONLY choices at any cost. NOT quality! The annual legislative reporting is now gone. Did anything replace it? Mosaica, my chosen study company appears to open and shut PSAs as if they were “buy it here finance it here” used car lots. That is seriously troubling. They took over that entire small district in Muskegon and have now had a teaching staff mutiny. Principle quit before year started and then a mutiny. Profit or not-for-profit, that is NOT a well-run business. Who suffers? The students and desperate parents.

Reminds me of predatory carpet baggers.

Jon, you write absolute fantasy nonsense.

But you write beautifully! Your choice of words is so colorful. Your logic makes huge unsubstantiated leaps, but the transition is eloquently executed, and flows nicely.

Very vivid and punchy.

I like it!

It is pointless to rebut.... You'll just change topics to more of the sweet populist rhetoric.

But I sincerely do like the writing style. I am a fan.

Always happy to hear from my fans, but if you think what I'm saying today is fantasy, then you don't know Snydely and His Ricklashers. Last year they were denying they'd ever do what they're doing today, and next year they'll be denying they ever did what they're doing today. Now that's fantasy!