As far as we know, Joshua, school is still in session in Rochester tomorrow.

This is about freedom and choice; if the government adds value the citizens will join and pay them the taxes. If they do not add value the citizens will not pay them the taxes.

By your logic, taxes should be voluntary, too. Also, paying for something you take out of a store should be completely voluntary, too. After all, it's just human nature that people will always freely pay the actual costs of benefits received.

I'm sure that a Zero-Based Budget & Barter Society is some people's idea of utopia. But anyone who stops to think about it for 30 seconds would realize what a nightmare that would be.

Compulsory is the problem, Jon.

You are forcing people to pay a third party as a condition of employment.

As far as taxes... they are an unfortunate but necessary condition of US residency. You can't see the difference between residency and employment?

I see this as State interference with contracts.

Businesses sign exclusive contracts with each other all the time, and their owners would be outraged if the state interfered with their freedom to do so. I don't see a labor contract as any different from that.

Imagine your company signs a contract with another company that makes your company the exclusive provider of specified goods and services to the other company for a specified fee for a specified time.

Suppose the State passes a law saying that any other individual or company who wants to violate that contract has some kind of “Right To Weasel” into your business any time they feel like it.

Suppose some individual or company does just that, and the company you contracted with decides that your contract is void, because the other source “adds more value” to their bottom line.

Imagine the hue and cry against you when when you protest:

“This is about freedom and choice. If your company adds value the other company will observe the contract pay your fees. If your company does not add value the other company will not pay your fees.”

Still stewing about this?

You make an interesting point, at first glance. But analogy you offer is too simplistic, and you forget that the government does have laws that will interceded... in the case of monopolistic practices. That is really what these labor contracts are.

You seem to think that businesses freely enter into these labor contracts, and that is HUGE stretch. Yes, they do approve them, but what choice do they have? I guess they could chose between signing and closing shop?

You view it as "Right to Weasel"; we view it as "Extortion Abatement"

Oh... and that is just from the business perspective. From the labor perspective, you are still forcing someone to pay a third party for a service that they may or may not want.

If they union is good, employees will welcome their representation.

When was the last time the UAW held a vote to see if people still wanted a union?

Lianne:

This is a direct result of the democrats trying to push through a sweeping constitutional amendment on collective bargaining, despite warnings from everyone including Snyder that such an attempt would likely result in this.

Not doing this would invite the same Democrats to create proposal 3 or something like it. Such a law would have had a devastating effect on Michigan's future economy. Nobody would want to invest in this state.

As they say, elections have consequences.....

Snyder has said all along that it is not on the radar...

But it was not because he did not believe in Freedom to Work. It was because he did not want to unleash the divisiveness that we now see. (For example, 26,000 kids out of school today because those teachers put politics ahead of their responsibilities to teach our kids.)

However, as doug noted, that horse was let out of the barn by organized labor and the dems. They have been waging this divisive battle now for six months. The issue was not going to die with the overwhelming loss in November. So I think Snyder has prudently decided that passing Freedom to Work now will put a cap on it... what's done is done... and we can start off the new year fresh.

And as far as putting it on the fast track... I guess I'm not sure how we can view it that way. This has been discussed for years. It is simple legislation. What more can be said about it that has not been said a thousand times over the years? How many people do not already have established positions on it?

When you mention hypocrisy... do you mean when they forced home healthcare workers to join SEIU, and are now saying that it is optional?

Back on point to my point. Tit for tat Mike? Please address the actual comment I made.

Pending Approval
Lianne Mathie
7:04 pm on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
Mike, you are a amazing magician! My hat is off to you. Now, Dear Sir, answer the real question I posed.
I personally voted no on 2 and 4. I have had to pay off unions to leave us alone when we load in our display at trade shows. Over payed to have a light bulb changed in New York at another trade show. I have no great love for unions.
My point being these over fed, over eager, freeloading Reps and Senators in Lansing have not much of a leg to stand on in terms of credibility, by fast tracking a bill that really should have gone before the voters in IMHO.
But that's all good with you. right? ;)

As I was saying, but Patch never posted.
Lianne Mathie
7:04 pm on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
Mike, you are a amazing magician! My hat is off to you. Now, Dear Sir, answer the real question I posed.
I personally voted no on 2 and 4. I have had to pay off unions to leave us alone when we load in our display at trade shows. Over payed to have a light bulb changed in New York at another trade show. I have no great love for unions.
My point being these over fed, over eager, freeloading Reps and Senators in Lansing have not much of a leg to stand on in terms of credibility, by fast tracking a bill that really should have gone before the voters in IMHO.
But that's all good with you. right? ;)

Lainne, I am not particularly impressed with our legislature as a whole. Aside from little bursts like this, they have not shown remarkable leadership.

Having said that, I am not sure see their actions here as an epic fail. Refer to my comments to your previous post.

I would've thought it would've been a great opportunity to be more public about it, in an effort to trumpet the positive effects of RTW in the press.

In retrospect, given the violent reaction of the thugs, maybe they made the right decision?

If it's on the intra-webs, then it must be true:
http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/breaking-americans-for-prosperity-stages-phony-altercation-at-michigan-right-to-work-rally.html

Paul... great find thanks -- thanks for the post!

Well, if combatant Tom Duckworth says he saw it... and says so on the intra-webs... then I guess everything else we with our own eyes in the dozens of videos must be fabricated.

Who is Tom Duckworth, anyway?

doug...

Personally my opinion -- unions 50%-50% -- but the hypocrisy between both sides is disturbing. doug... I took the time to post PDFs -- two well thought out thesis; both sides on this subject... wonder if anyone took the time to read them or the bill -- the bill is only eight pages.

Funny -- how we can forget history... a union brought down Communism in Poland which is now a Democracy.

Funny -- how Republicans can get their underwear in a bunch when government steps in and passes regulation that would regulate a business.

Funny -- how some Republicans don't recognize that unions are also a business and don't want government regulating what they can and can not do? I wonder how business would react if they passed a law that stated I could take lunch anytime I felt like it. :)

This is a done deal; and there is study, after study, after study that RTW states pay less for one's hard work -- same job -- contributing to America's economy. I don't think this is about choice but more about one's control of a business?

note: Someone answer this question, I don't know the facts -- is the UAW in charge of the management of employee benefits? And to manage that... would that not take union dues? And now when one opts out with this new bill will they still be entitled to those benefits but not the management of that cost?

Scot: I agree that neither side is being straight about their motives ....

Democrats: Its all about the money and the millions they need to fiund their politcal lobbying efforts. They are afraid that given the choice, workers will opt out, particualrly those who don't support their politcal views.

Republicans: This is payback for the union over-reaching with proposal 2 and supporting Manny on the bridge. They are afraid they will keep trying, based on their past actions and this will set them back for awhile.

You can forget all the rest of the mom and apple pie rationale both sides are offering. The republicans won this one.....

Right to Work as a concept has some merits. It doesnt lower wages. It tends to be enacted in lower wage states as a way of attracting business. The list is dominated be southern states, who are doing better economically with lower unemployment rates and higher growth. Those are just facts that both sides spin the way they want them.

If all unions stepped up to the plate the way that the UAW did with GM and Chrysler, I believe most people would be against RTW. That has not been the case, particularly with the public unions, which is why opinion polls will be behind Snyder on this one....

Lets not forget who started this fight.

I know people are trying to make this out to be a one-dimensional choice with a minimal outcome, but the way that "right to work" has played out in different states has not been empowering to unions or middle-class citizens in general. It is not a badge of honor for Michigan to pass this initiative, nor is it a step in the right direction for the economy or morale of the majority of the people in Michigan. No matter how someone feels about right to work, for or against, the way Snyder rammed this initiative through is reprehensible and immoral, not at all consistent with American ideals of fairness, democracy and justice. Snyder is making a conscious choice to be deaf and to not to hear the people's opposition and has made a decision to defy their wishes anyway. This initiative intentionally tries to silence the collective voice of Michigan's common working person, and therefore its middle class. Legislators need to open their eyes and ears and stop tuning out what they don't want to hear or know that doesn't match their personal agenda.

doug...

Thanks for your response; I concur neither side is being straight about their motives. And as America continues to take sides in it's mad mad race to the bottom... one would hope we would only just look at the facts.

Fact -- Is it true the rich are getting richer?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/jul/06/it-true-rich-are-getting-richer/

Fact -- The Inflation Rate Is A Lie Too?
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-inflation-rate-is-a-lie-too

Fact -- Fiat Currency: Using the Past to See into the Future
http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/

"Some, myself included, might say that the dollar has already failed. It has lost over 92% of its value since its initial issuance in 1913. After the revaluation in 1934, the dollar dropped another 41%. In my opinion, it already is toilet paper money, but for the above-mentioned characteristics, which are alarmingly similar to the circumstances that led up to the eventual collapse of the dollar’s toilet paper predecessors, I believe that we have seen only the tip of the iceberg of the dollar’s inevitable path toward becoming toilet paper money." -- Nick Jones

P.S. Soon the only difference between Mississippi and Michigan will be the accent... LOL

doug... Happy Holidays

Richard, could you clarify for me who you think is overpaid exactly?

Where's the thumbs up button

Richard... Would that $100K be the adjusted gross? After deductions, like mortgage interest, property taxes, and maybe medical expenses?

Scot... I was tossing what is called a softball... queuing it up for Richard to further drive his point home.

And I can't believe that you read my friend Tom's articles!

Mike... Like you, I like to read a variety of posts on any subject. Jack Lessenberry does an excellent job writing and formulating opinions on issues that affect our Michigan Government too. Like you, and open mind and research should be everyone's goal before making a personal opinion or a policy statement on any issue. To call out anyone's opinion or "ignore the people who act childish, they will eventually give up because they just become meaningless noise and add nothing to the conversation"... we know who wrote that comment is just wrong, and demonstrates that there are those out there who will continue to look at the world with blinders on; which in my opinion is very sad.

Mike... Happy Holidays, thanks for your response I like Tom Gantert too.

Right-wing Power Grab
By Jack Lessenberry Published: December 12, 2012
http://metrotimes.com/columns/right-wing-power-grab-1.1415000

P.S. Tom Gantert and Jack Lessenberry -- lets both agree when looking for a way to formulate a personal opinion we may not have to agree with everything they write but we do enjoy their words, and others as a source for information.

Amy, I am not old. But my age or my race or my sex shouldn't matter. I presented cold hard facts and you went straight to areas that are used to determine discrimination under many federal and state laws. Nice job. I would gladly challenge you to a 5-mile race on the trail of your choice and happily post our respective times on Rochester Patch. Should you prevail, I would refrain from any postings for a period of five years.

" In these days of changing ways......so called, liberated days.....story comes to mind, a friend of mine......." Rod Stewart 1976.

So, how far have we come since then? And, how much of history would we like to repeat? I personally, would like to skip much of it. As much as I love Elvis, am not really looking forward to reliving the fifties!

And Betsy and Dick Devos are not what I call real 'environmentalists' so may want to rethink the company you keep:)

Happy Holidays.....always good to get a shout out from you.......keeps both of us on our toes:) ( And on a side note, your friends in Lansing could be a little more polite about their timing. As most of us in the audience on Monday night were NOT so pleased to hear what Dr. M. had to say, despite knowing darn well the content before setting foot in the place. I myself was looking forward to a little break from politics......as there are domestic 'things' to be done before Dec 25th. You see, I dont get paid for my participation in our democracy.)

As always, give my regards to 'Loverboy'. I am always reminded of that 'Loverboy' song 'Paradise' from the movie 'Footloose'. As life in this town sometimes feels like a scene from that movie.

But really, have been listening to a lot of Rod Stewart these days........helps to keep a smile on my face through these tumultuous times! Here......lets sing together, shall we?

"Never Wait or Hesitate......Get in Good before its TOO LATE, you may never get another Chance! Cause Youth's a Mask, but it don't last, LIVE it long and LIVE it FAST,.......... Georgie was a Friend of Mine.....................duh duh duh duh duh duh......duh da duh duh da duh uhhh............................................................................................................Oh Georgie Staaaaaay.......Dont Go awaaaay...... ...........Georgie Please Staaaaay.........You Take OUR Breath Away!"